I often find that Christians are quite happy to ask members of other religions to consider that they might be wrong, and to contemplate the magnitude of a personal change like religious conversion from the faith of their birth and early life to some form of Christianity which may be culturally quite alien to them, but rarely expend much time or effort contemplating whether they might be wrong or what it would take for them to leave Christianity for something else. I think it is worthwhile, then, to consider the intellectual reasons that someone might, reasonably, consider bypassing or leaving Christianity, and specifically the reasons someone might want to become something else. Doing so can help us avoid bad reasons for becoming and being Christian and isolate the good ones.
I thought your treatment at the end was very well done when considering the reasons for Christianity. For me, the most immediate and always resonating aspect, no matter my mood or internal vacillations, is participation in the mystery cult which I have little doubt at all Christ himself established and mystically maintains. Eating and drinking his divinity is literally on the table, and there is little to me in the world more beautiful than that. Feasting on the celestial man in the heavenly, eschatological banquet, as the seal of my union with His Godhead. Keeps me coming back every time.
I did not have the privilege of growing up in any religious community. When I did become a Christian, I was told by every convincing group that I had to believe in Christ their way. It was a miserable trek for me for many years, but I made it through the ranks. Strangely enough, a personal fascination with Hinduism liberated me from this and made me a better Christian. When you have the substance, you never want to leave it. I think that’s what most people want. Sometimes we want it our way or sometimes we want it the way we perceive we should have it. There is great freedom when you find it or when it ultimately finds you.
This is an excellent post, and something I often ponder. Like you, I am more at home in the Abrahamic rather than the Dharmic, simply as a matter of cultural gravity. I agree there's something deeply vital and daring about the evolutions of modern Judaism, as I feel they're often asking questions about God ahead of the curve, whether that's in Neo-Hasidism, like Arthur Green, or the Renewal movement.
But I agree, the open universalism and claims to restore the pristine religion of all humanity, the idea of reversion of the soul, in Islam, in its ideal form, is deeply appealing, as is Islamic mysticism, so that Islam in some ways has been able to be more accommodationist to the Vedic world, as a culture-specific revelation able to fit into a broad and universal call of God to all peoples and times, hence David Bentley Hart's love of Sikhism, than Christianity has, Islam being a monotheism open to all cultural revelations of the one God to any people, in theory, without the historical, geographical, and biological specificities demanded by the Incarnation.
I still wonder whether Islam might actually prove to be the best religion adapted to missionary work in space with extraterrestrial life for that reason (thinking of Dune here). David, I'd be really curious about your thoughts on how Christianity, Islam, or any other major religion or concept of God might adapt to, or, how they might fare with, extraterrestrial intelligent life, by the way.
I still find myself returning to the angelomorphic Christology of Ibn Arabi in his Bezels of Wisdom and wonder whether he has cut through the difficulties after Nicaea. On your point about Jesus' death and vindication, and the necessity of prophets to accept and undergo suffering, that was a beautiful section. I do wonder, though, whether the earliest Islam really believed Jesus escaped death with a docetic double. I can't track it down, but I seem to recall some scholars have suggested the original Qur'anic section which usually has been exegeted like this may merely be trying to indicate Jesus hadn't stayed dead and was raised, that is, he "only appeared to die" insofar as he lived after resurrection and vindication, and thus escaped death - albeit elliptically, sort of how in the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter, there's a sharp distinction between the living Christ who hovers around Jesus of Nazareth as he dies on the cross in order to show the invincibility of the living Christ. On a personal note, I've had a long fascination with the Mandaeans, too, although I would have difficulty there with their somewhat contradictory views about Jesus.
For me, as Matthew said, I stay a Catholic Christian because I need the Eucharist and the liturgy, and God who meets us at the sacrifice - of course, not just any god whose character we don't know but Jesus and the Father of Lights who we do know. Having a long perspective on history, the idea that we still give a sacrificial exchange, a vegetable sacrifice of bread and wine, in which God meets us and gives food, Godself, a sharing of substance, back to us as a community is something vital and timeless, as is said at the liturgy when it invokes Melchizedek and Abel. I love when the Maronite tradition (?) still has its priests tremble their hands over the Eucharistic bread like the Spirit. It feels so authentically human, outside of our world of commercial exchange. At a sacrifice the exchange happens freely and without the atomism of a check-out counter - though sometimes the Communion line can feel like a check-out counter. :)
From an anthropological perspective, I think I'd be lost without the knowledge that we are still offering sacrifices and libations, and God's still meeting us there, in Christ, somewhere in the world just as human beings done for thousands of years.
Thanks David, I enjoyed hearing your reflections. It’s not easy feeling connected with different traditions and working out what one’s involvement should look like.
Honest and interesting reflections. I'm mostly a Christian by virtue of having nowhere else to go. I wish I had some kind of passionate attraction to Jesus, but I'm just a neurotic, melancholy, disenchanted former evangelical who can't bring myself to embrace atheism because I find it so distasteful. I hope that my son (who was just born last year) will find your three good reasons compelling when he's an adult.
Christians certainly need to get better at recognizing the beauty and truth that exists within other religious traditions. Something that I think is possible even for those Christians who are of a more exclusivist bent. I often consider what I would do if I were to leave Eastern Orthodoxy (which for me would mean leaving Christianity as such) I’m sure I would attempt to practice in one of the Vedic traditions, which I find endlessly fascinating and beautiful.
For you and others who may believe there is a missing link between the Old Testament and the New it could be it is in the translation of Genesis 1:1. Here is an invitation to a discussion titled "Interpreting Genesis 1:1" and its relationship to the Word. The draft paper and discussion is available on academia.edu. Enjoy. I am not sure if you would need to sign up on academia or not to enter. Its free just needs some basic info like your email. If you would share your comments through academia or substack that would be helpful.
I wonder what role schismatic scaffolding and serial Christianity play in people flaming out of Christianity? I wonder if those would qualify as traumas under the DSM-V? I wonder if trauma impacts brain functioning on the same topic? I wonder if there’s ever a reason to give Jesus a break while a person regroups from trauma over Christianity? I wonder if one can reasonably expect to integrate those traumas without giving Christianity a break for a minute? I’m new to Christianity and not wanting to walk into the same nightmare (I’ve got other nightmares to integrate).
I thought your treatment at the end was very well done when considering the reasons for Christianity. For me, the most immediate and always resonating aspect, no matter my mood or internal vacillations, is participation in the mystery cult which I have little doubt at all Christ himself established and mystically maintains. Eating and drinking his divinity is literally on the table, and there is little to me in the world more beautiful than that. Feasting on the celestial man in the heavenly, eschatological banquet, as the seal of my union with His Godhead. Keeps me coming back every time.
I did not have the privilege of growing up in any religious community. When I did become a Christian, I was told by every convincing group that I had to believe in Christ their way. It was a miserable trek for me for many years, but I made it through the ranks. Strangely enough, a personal fascination with Hinduism liberated me from this and made me a better Christian. When you have the substance, you never want to leave it. I think that’s what most people want. Sometimes we want it our way or sometimes we want it the way we perceive we should have it. There is great freedom when you find it or when it ultimately finds you.
This is an excellent post, and something I often ponder. Like you, I am more at home in the Abrahamic rather than the Dharmic, simply as a matter of cultural gravity. I agree there's something deeply vital and daring about the evolutions of modern Judaism, as I feel they're often asking questions about God ahead of the curve, whether that's in Neo-Hasidism, like Arthur Green, or the Renewal movement.
But I agree, the open universalism and claims to restore the pristine religion of all humanity, the idea of reversion of the soul, in Islam, in its ideal form, is deeply appealing, as is Islamic mysticism, so that Islam in some ways has been able to be more accommodationist to the Vedic world, as a culture-specific revelation able to fit into a broad and universal call of God to all peoples and times, hence David Bentley Hart's love of Sikhism, than Christianity has, Islam being a monotheism open to all cultural revelations of the one God to any people, in theory, without the historical, geographical, and biological specificities demanded by the Incarnation.
I still wonder whether Islam might actually prove to be the best religion adapted to missionary work in space with extraterrestrial life for that reason (thinking of Dune here). David, I'd be really curious about your thoughts on how Christianity, Islam, or any other major religion or concept of God might adapt to, or, how they might fare with, extraterrestrial intelligent life, by the way.
I still find myself returning to the angelomorphic Christology of Ibn Arabi in his Bezels of Wisdom and wonder whether he has cut through the difficulties after Nicaea. On your point about Jesus' death and vindication, and the necessity of prophets to accept and undergo suffering, that was a beautiful section. I do wonder, though, whether the earliest Islam really believed Jesus escaped death with a docetic double. I can't track it down, but I seem to recall some scholars have suggested the original Qur'anic section which usually has been exegeted like this may merely be trying to indicate Jesus hadn't stayed dead and was raised, that is, he "only appeared to die" insofar as he lived after resurrection and vindication, and thus escaped death - albeit elliptically, sort of how in the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter, there's a sharp distinction between the living Christ who hovers around Jesus of Nazareth as he dies on the cross in order to show the invincibility of the living Christ. On a personal note, I've had a long fascination with the Mandaeans, too, although I would have difficulty there with their somewhat contradictory views about Jesus.
For me, as Matthew said, I stay a Catholic Christian because I need the Eucharist and the liturgy, and God who meets us at the sacrifice - of course, not just any god whose character we don't know but Jesus and the Father of Lights who we do know. Having a long perspective on history, the idea that we still give a sacrificial exchange, a vegetable sacrifice of bread and wine, in which God meets us and gives food, Godself, a sharing of substance, back to us as a community is something vital and timeless, as is said at the liturgy when it invokes Melchizedek and Abel. I love when the Maronite tradition (?) still has its priests tremble their hands over the Eucharistic bread like the Spirit. It feels so authentically human, outside of our world of commercial exchange. At a sacrifice the exchange happens freely and without the atomism of a check-out counter - though sometimes the Communion line can feel like a check-out counter. :)
From an anthropological perspective, I think I'd be lost without the knowledge that we are still offering sacrifices and libations, and God's still meeting us there, in Christ, somewhere in the world just as human beings done for thousands of years.
Thanks David, I enjoyed hearing your reflections. It’s not easy feeling connected with different traditions and working out what one’s involvement should look like.
Honest and interesting reflections. I'm mostly a Christian by virtue of having nowhere else to go. I wish I had some kind of passionate attraction to Jesus, but I'm just a neurotic, melancholy, disenchanted former evangelical who can't bring myself to embrace atheism because I find it so distasteful. I hope that my son (who was just born last year) will find your three good reasons compelling when he's an adult.
Thank Christ I'm not a Christian!
Christians certainly need to get better at recognizing the beauty and truth that exists within other religious traditions. Something that I think is possible even for those Christians who are of a more exclusivist bent. I often consider what I would do if I were to leave Eastern Orthodoxy (which for me would mean leaving Christianity as such) I’m sure I would attempt to practice in one of the Vedic traditions, which I find endlessly fascinating and beautiful.
For you and others who may believe there is a missing link between the Old Testament and the New it could be it is in the translation of Genesis 1:1. Here is an invitation to a discussion titled "Interpreting Genesis 1:1" and its relationship to the Word. The draft paper and discussion is available on academia.edu. Enjoy. I am not sure if you would need to sign up on academia or not to enter. Its free just needs some basic info like your email. If you would share your comments through academia or substack that would be helpful.
The link to the paper is: https://www.academia.edu/s/2c8b070cd2?source=link
I wonder what role schismatic scaffolding and serial Christianity play in people flaming out of Christianity? I wonder if those would qualify as traumas under the DSM-V? I wonder if trauma impacts brain functioning on the same topic? I wonder if there’s ever a reason to give Jesus a break while a person regroups from trauma over Christianity? I wonder if one can reasonably expect to integrate those traumas without giving Christianity a break for a minute? I’m new to Christianity and not wanting to walk into the same nightmare (I’ve got other nightmares to integrate).